Mutationless Today

Well, the mutations are pretty much done, but I’m not putting them up today.  I got an e-mail from Paizo yesterday regarding the fan material I’ve created for the BB.  Apparently I’m supposed to insert their Community Use Policy clause in stuff I write, but I’m not entirely certain what all needs it (adding a page to my blog’s sidebar with the clause isn’t sufficient).

Also, they told me that the BB isn’t even included in the Community Use Policy, so I’m not sure if that means I’m not allowed to write stuff for the BB at all, or if it just means that I’m not allowed to reference the BB in what I write.  I’m talking to a helpful guy at Paizo right now to get it all sorted out and clarify what I can and can’t do, and what does and does not need the CUP clause.  Hopefully won’t take long.  Until then, cheers. 🙂

Edit:  Okay, I’ve gotten some feedback from Paizo (that was quick!)  Apparently the BB is covered by the CUP.  However, there’s all this legal stuff I have to do, which, frankly, is too much work for a bunch of fan created content that I won’t make any money off of.  So, I think I’m just going to pull my BB material.

Sorry to do this, but this is a bit of a hassle to deal with for something I do just for fun.  I’ll be taking down all my BB stuff in the near future.  Thanks to everyone who read and commented on it, I appreciate your feedback.


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28 Responses to “Mutationless Today”

  1. David Jenks Says:

    It’s a sad day today.

    Sorry to hear this, but I’m 100% behind keeping things “legal” and if they’re requesting you comply or take it down, that’s the way it goes.

    You’ve put in a ton of good work, though, and we all appreciate your contribution(s), Ed.

  2. David Jenks Says:

    On the bright side, I guess I don’t need to do the goblin write-ups I was planning after all…. 😉

  3. thebabblingbane Says:

    Hoping this will work out well, considering where I had hoped to go with my own blog. But it sounds like you are corresponding with an amicable individual, it is Pathfinder and not some other non-approachable entity that I shall not name.

    Let us know how it goes, and please share what others will have to do to be compliant.

    Best and good luck,

  4. Doug Benson Says:

    I am so sorry to hear that you have to take down all your hard work. I really want to thank you for everything you put up. I am running a basic box game at my local game store, and we use everything you have put out.
    I am also sad to see the omega stuff go away. I was real excited and was getting ready to run a couple game at our small game store convention.
    Anyway thank you for all your hard work, you have really made an old gammer happy.

  5. Tiorn Says:

    Sorry you have to do this. I don’t blame you a bit. One person shouldn’t have to jump through all the legal hoops alone on something like this. I think you have helped provide many of us with some tools to work with on our own, however. The templates and samples that we have already will serve as a guide for own individual efforts. I also hate to bring it up again, but I’ve mentioned before that I thought a PFBB d20srd site would be a good thing… especially now when its clear that one person can’t bare the burden for all and others could help out in meeting Paizo’s compliance issues. But that’s rather ambitious to take on and actually do, and as stated before, Paizo probably really does not want to see something like that happen. Anyhow… do what you have to do. I understand… and thanks for what you have provided. Its very appreciated.

  6. David Jenks Says:

    Whoops, I forgot to add a THANK YOU to the many I’ve offered before. 😀

    Thank you.

  7. thebabblingbane Says:

    Wow… didn’t see that happening. Shame really, but I understand your decision and want to thank you for what you had done. I am curious as to what “…there’s all this legal stuff I have to do…” entails, considering I might push through with my blog, though this was a major blow to my motivation…

    Thanks again…

    • edowar Says:

      Well, start here:

      And here’s a forum post about the OGL: (I must confess I haven’t read the forum post…I’d already given up by that point, heh).

      Also, you can’t just copy-and-paste the OGL into your content (I thought that’s what I was supposed to do). You need to write your own ‘Section 15’ of the OGL. When it was suggessted that I seek out professional assistance if I needed help with that, I pretty much said ‘screw this’ (though in much nicer language 🙂 ).

      It might be a bit easier for you since you know all this in advance now. The thought of going back and making these changes to all my material and blog posts was simply too daunting. I have other things to do with my time. :/

      Oh, and once you do all that, you’ll need to register with Paizo as well, here:

      • thebabblingbane Says:

        Wow, okay, I think I can muddle through most of that, and as you said, it might be easier since I found this out before I dove off into the deep end. Thanks for helping me out on this!


      • edowar Says:

        No problem. Good luck to you. 🙂

      • Tiorn Says:

        Well, look at how does their section 15 notice (and overall notices). It seems like the way its setup is… since the site is dedicated to PF, it appears to be understood that they are using information from the PRD (which they do not do notices for on individual pages). And when they do use information from other book sources, they have to do the section 15 notice. For an example, I went there and clicked on the ‘barbarian’ class link. On that page, in the navigation menu, there is a link for the community use info. That’s it. Nothing stating that any info is coming from the PRD. The only other notices there are section 15 notices in regard to information being used from the Advanced Player Guide and Ultimate Combat. Nothing on the page at all about the core rules.

        Ahhhh… I see the problem now. Its because you haven’t noted the other sources. See, they didn’t just pull from the PRD/core rules. They pulled from other books as well. For example, look at the list of Rogue talents in the BB… some of those came from Ultimate Combat (and from APG as well, I’m sure). If you made up your own version of the rogue, but used the exact same list of talents… you would need to add in the section 15 lines for APG and UC. The same would be true for the other classes.

        Just a quick glance, I picked the Gunslinger. Your disclaimer/notices on that file lacks one thing and one thing only: the section 15 notice that the Gunslinger is from Ultimate Combat. It had to have that… and that appears to be the only thing wrong with it, by itself.

      • thebabblingbane Says:

        Hopefully this falls into line under Tiorn’s comment. If not, my apologies for being ‘reply’ literate.

        Taking a look at the PFSRD site, I noticed that on the main page is what appears to be their consolidated OGL statement, with all 381 references. Apparently for EVERY product ever created by them for PF! Hard to believe that every product is somehow referenced in the PFSRD, though it might be.

        So based on that, I guess I have two options as far as the PFOGL goes; post their OGL in its entirety to catch any reference to anything source book that I might unknowingly be pulling from by using the PFSRD, or if I use any particular part to check to see if their is an OGL for that page referencing its source (ie: Gunslinger)

        Gawd, they could have made it a bit easier! Great to have all OGL data on one site, but at this point I probably would have preferred a site for each source and its own OGL…

        Oops, option 3: Piss on it. Which, at the moment is sounding pretty good, considering the day I have had! But then again, if I ONLY use the PFBB books, and everything else is of my own divination, then I should only have to site those two small books. Ok, time to stay positive!

        Thanks Tiorn,

      • edowar Says:

        It’s a lot of legal hoops to jump through for fan created material done purely out of fun. It’d be nice if Paizo could find a way to make it a little easier on the non-professionals who enjoy their games while still protecting their IP. Not being a laywer, I have no idea how’d they do that or if it’s even possible. And, alas, Paizo’s probably not interested in blazing new legal trails, either. :/

  8. ravenbow Says:

    This is truly sad news. I had grown utterly frustrated with Pathfinder as it has become the other behemoth spewing out content which you are assumed to have if you want to play in any public forum.
    The Beginners Box and especially your templates for it are the reason I am even playing at all as my group would not exist without its simplified form. They just have no interest in full blown rules. Neither do I really.

    You did great work and I for one will miss your updates and templates.

    I feel especially bad as I believe I was the catalyst to this. *truly sad face*

    Sometimes it is just better to shut up. In this lawyer driven word it is easier to just walk away than do the right thing.

  9. edowar Says:

    Thanks for the support guys. It’s nice to be appreciated. 🙂 I had a lot of fun working on the BB stuff and I’m glad other people found it to be of value, too.

    My BB material will be gone by this afternoon. I guess I’ll start focusing on other OSR-related material now, and my own lame creations, lol.

    Good gaming to you all. Cheers!

  10. David Jenks Says:

    We could always talk about Barbarians of Lemuria……….?

  11. Tiorn Says:

    Ed, I just have to ask what the deciding factor for you on this was… all the extra stuff that Paizo requires (signing up on the community use registry, etc.) or was it the idea of having to go through each and every individual file that you’ve created and adding in each of the required copyright notices for the license’s section 15?

    The first part doesn’t seem like a big deal, honestly.

    As far as section 15 changes that would need to be made, I see where you would balk at that. So, I think, don’t worry about it. Just take those individual files offline for good. Simplify it. You were going to do a compiled version anyhow, so you could just make sure that the section 15 copyrights were correct in it, just one file, just one time.

    You’d need copyright notices for the core rules/beginner box, APG, UC, UM, and also the bestiaries. Plus, any other book you use. But at least you’d only have to do it once.

    If its not about the section 15 copyrights, then I’m sorry. I certainly don’t want to annoy you when you have made your decision. Maybe I missed something else that you considered a no-go and I will certainly respect that. It just looked like to me that you were overwhelmed by the idea of verifying what books were used in each individual class PDF (and the separate feats PDF as well) and making the necessary changes to each file. If it was something else entirely, then none of that matters.

    • edowar Says:

      You know, that’s something I hand’t considered. Just doing it once for a consolidated PDF wouldn’t be so bad.

      I guess I just need to figure out the Section 15 stuff so I get it right this time. Give me a few days to sort it all out…

      Thanks 🙂

      • Tiorn Says:

        Cool! Glad I could help with giving you a different perspective of the situation!

      • thebabblingbane Says:

        I would be willing to help, as I mention on my blog, but I am not an OGL wizard by any means. We could take a heck of a whack at it though!

        Let me know if I can help! thebane at mail dot com

      • David Jenks Says:

        As always, if there’s typing that needs to be done or any help I could provide, I’m here for you. Send me the word.

        I’d LOVE to see the BB material on this site (and only partially because i contributed a few critters for it)! 😀

      • edowar Says:

        Thanks for the offers of help guys. I’ll read up on Paizo’s CUP and OGL stuff and if I can’t figure it out I’ll put out a call for assistance. I’m hoping I can just take a look at what other sites/companies have done and follow their lead.

        I’m thinking three consolidated PDFs now: one for the classes, one for the feats and one for the monsters so far. I figure once the Section 15 is configured for one of them, it ought to be easy enough to change for the others.

        Thanks again. 🙂

      • thebabblingbane Says:


        I hope you don’t mind, but I took the liberty of pulling all the section 15s off of the SRD that I found that I thought pertained to the classes that you re-imaged in your consolidated classes document and put together an OGL page for it. It Wasn’t nearly as hard as I thought and only took about a half hour. I added you as a source as well in case you want to host it again and someone else wants to use it for further works.

        I can’t seem to find your email address, so if you could email me, I will send you a copy of it. I even went so far as to list each class in the OGL section 15 to the book that it might have referenced.

        All in all, there were only three more sources that had to be referenced for the most part; Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat – covered most of them. Anyway, let me know if you want it and where to send it. I can also post your blog to the CUP site should you need assistance there.

        Again, I hope you don’t think I am being forward or pushy, I just hate to see your great work go to waste when so many people enjoy it.


      • edowar Says:


        No problem, you aren’t being pushy and I appreciate the help.

        I also went through the OGL Section 15 of each book I used for the class conversions: the Core rules, APG, Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic and copied and pasted them into the Section 15 of the consolidated PDF. And you’re right, it seems pretty straightforward.

        Then I put the CUP at the end of the PDF, so hopefully all my bases are covered now. I’ll be posting it shortly. Feel free to host the new version again, if you like.



      • thebabblingbane Says:

        Well, ya beat me to it. I was looking at what I would need to do and said, “Might as well do it now for a great product”

        Anyway, did you add yourself to the OGL and don’t forget to register your blog at the

        Are you planning on putting OGL and CUP pages on your blog?

        I will most definitely re-host it! Thanks.


      • edowar Says:

        Yes, I added myself to the OGL and was going to register with them momentarily. I’ve put the CUP on my blog but I wasn’t planning on putting the OGL (though naturally I will if Paizo comes knocking again and tells me too 😉 ).

        Thanks for hosting it on your blog, too!

  12. Step Off With My Left Foot… « The Banes Blog Says:

    […] wanting to fall under the scrutiny of Paizo, like EdOWar had, for not complying to their Community Use Policy (CUP), or the Open Gaming License (OGL), I […]

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